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So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
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So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Sea Urchin - (Send PM)
Member Since: 3/11/2011
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Date Posted: 7/24/2017 10:45 AM




Miles of nesting beaches closed for months, unused miles of VFA’s set up near these nesting beaches, trapping and killing of predator species, millions of dollars spent, thousands of pages of studies done, and for what?

Out of 68 total nests, zero piping plovers, zero Wilson’s plovers, and zero American oystercatchers in 2017. Zip, zilch, nada.

Just goes to show that even the best intentions of the enviro’s can’t force a species to recover in an area that is just plain inhospitable to them.




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RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Kelleybean88 - (Send PM)
Member Since: 6/23/2010
Location: Midlo, VA
Total Posts: 432
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Date Posted: 7/24/2017 4:14 PM




Could it be because they haven't hatched yet?


RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: judyk - (Send PM)
Member Since: 11/1/2008
Location: eastern PA
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Date Posted: 7/24/2017 6:23 PM




Could it be because they haven't hatched yet?


Doubtful. Just based on my limited knowledge the time from laying to fledging is about 70 days, and eggs are laid (generally) in April, so most should fledge by mid July anyway. The way this reads, it sounds as tho something happened to the eggs, predation or weather related, I don't know, but certainly not a very successful year for chicks.
I did not go back to check earlier resource reports, where numbers would indicate a more thorough history.

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Sea Urchin - (Send PM)
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Date Posted: 7/24/2017 8:14 PM




Could it be because they haven't hatched yet?



Negative. Beach-laying shorebirds fledge by late July or earlier, as they will not survive the rigors of fall migration otherwise.


The "Active Broods/Nests" data gives some hope for Wilson's and AMOY, but the trend line is obvious.


Beach nesting bird species have never fared well in CAHA, and human/ORV interaction is not to blame.



So much for the CHNPS “Saving the Piping Plover
Posted By: Obxfan21 - (Send PM)
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Date Posted: 7/25/2017 12:40 AM




Don't confuse the enviro nuts with facts. Can't wait to hear their spin on this.

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plov
Posted By: Sea Urchin - (Send PM)
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Date Posted: 7/25/2017 10:01 AM




Don't confuse the enviro nuts with facts. Can't wait to hear their spin on this.



Since they claimed that even the slightest increase in nesting success was due to the Final Rule, in turn any decrease in nesting success must also be attributed to the Final Rule.

Tropical systems can't be to blame this year either, as there have been zero that impacted NC directly.



Looks like the "Best Available Science" needs a re-write.

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Kelleybean88 - (Send PM)
Member Since: 6/23/2010
Location: Midlo, VA
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Date Posted: 7/25/2017 11:28 AM




We had a prolonged cool and wet spring here in Central Virginia, did OBX experience similar? That would certainly affect the survival of embryos.

My first college degree was in Coastal Zone Management, so stuff like this fascinates me!

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plov
Posted By: Sea Urchin - (Send PM)
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Date Posted: 7/25/2017 12:56 PM




We had a prolonged cool and wet spring here in Central Virginia, did OBX experience similar? That would certainly affect the survival of embryos.

My first college degree was in Coastal Zone Management, so stuff like this fascinates me!




Doesn't appear to be too out of the ordinary per the above graph from Weather Underground, other than wetter than normal.

Predation of eggs/chicks in usually the culprit, and the lack of a human presence during the nesting season actually help to have more predators on the nesting beaches.



RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: robschonk - (Send PM)
Member Since: 2/23/2009
Location: Avon/Norfolk
Total Posts: 5720
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Date Posted: 7/25/2017 1:12 PM




Follow the money.



vimeo.com/14696293

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: robschonk - (Send PM)
Member Since: 2/23/2009
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Date Posted: 7/25/2017 1:17 PM




https://youtu.be/q9sxRhDoShE

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Squid Pro Quo - (Send PM)
Member Since: 7/21/2008
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Date Posted: 7/25/2017 3:38 PM




But Ghost Crabs are having a banner year. They just love eggs.
And where are those fellows I used to argue with constantly? Big grin

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: prezlee - (Send PM)
Member Since: 4/12/2011
Location: Avon
Total Posts: 273
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Date Posted: 7/25/2017 4:44 PM




Funny. At first I thought Sea Urchin was Sea Oat, since it's been a while. Once I remembered, it was still interesting reading, but oh what could've been...

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Sea Urchin - (Send PM)
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Date Posted: 7/25/2017 8:19 PM




Funny. At first I thought Sea Urchin was Sea Oat, since it's been a while. Once I remembered, it was still interesting reading, but oh what could've been...




The first word in our moniker is the only similarity, trust me!

Wouldn't be too surprised if Oat got dredged up in the course of this thread, though. They can smell the truth about the CAHA Plovers being told all the way from Raleigh.

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Sea Urchin - (Send PM)
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Date Posted: 7/25/2017 8:21 PM




But Ghost Crabs are having a banner year. They just love eggs.
And where are those fellows I used to argue with constantly? Big grin



Big, fat and happy crabs, they be.

The arguers of old have moved on to greener pastures. The Hatteras vein is all tapped out.

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: SwampDuck - (Send PM)
Member Since: 7/21/2014
Location: Suffolk Virginia
Total Posts: 227
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Date Posted: 7/26/2017 7:19 AM




But Ghost Crabs are having a banner year. They just love eggs.
And where are those fellows I used to argue with constantly? Big grin



SPQ......sounds as if you kinda miss Dennis..... smiley with shades Big grin Beer


My old adversaries:
Posted By: Squid Pro Quo - (Send PM)
Member Since: 7/21/2008
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Date Posted: 7/26/2017 10:45 AM




Not so much Mr. Pohl, however he is currently the President of N.E.S.T. I applaud his efforts, but either he, or some others, must have decided that his argumentative nature on this board was not in the best interests of the organization. But it was Crotalus, and the earlier fellow, (His name alludes me now, but he was and ex NPS employee.) are the ones I was referring to. Turtle protection measures were never a leading cause of beach closures. Most recreational fisherman could deal with those measures. It was the avian pre-nesting closures that I always called draconian. A 1,000 meter closures for a horny looking bird, that didn't even belong there, that bothered us the most. A convicted child molester could stand closer to an elementary school, than a fisherman could stand next to an amorous looking Plover that was displaying pre-nesting behavior. Throw in other colonial water birds, that didn't even need protection, and you have the basis of a bad negotiated rule making decision. Fortunately, the current NPS Superintendent Dave Hallac, seems to have noticed the benefits of arranging a way to bypass these closures allowing access to the Point. How great has that been for thousands of people that have been able to visit Shelly Island?
And that’s all I have to say about that!
Confused


RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: judyk - (Send PM)
Member Since: 11/1/2008
Location: eastern PA
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Date Posted: 7/26/2017 11:59 AM




^^anchorman?

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Squid Pro Quo - (Send PM)
Member Since: 7/21/2008
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Date Posted: 7/26/2017 12:37 PM




^^anchorman?



Was that it? I have it on one of my home computers. He was apparently an NPS Tech, until he got caught burning something other than hardwood, while on the job.....As the story went.

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plov
Posted By: Sea Urchin - (Send PM)
Member Since: 3/11/2011
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Date Posted: 7/26/2017 2:39 PM




^^anchorman?





Redfin was the ex-NPS employee with a big-cat last name.

Anchorman was DOW's J.R.

Crotalus was the NPS Biotech with the hemp issue.

The "Silver&Gold" poster is likely a long walker.

And Sea Oat smells like either a derb or a mad duck.

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Squid Pro Quo - (Send PM)
Member Since: 7/21/2008
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Total Posts: 4713
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Date Posted: 7/26/2017 5:07 PM




Hahaha!

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: hatterasnc - (Send PM)
Member Since: 6/25/2007
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Date Posted: 7/26/2017 8:43 PM




Not exactly sure how to respond to the natural forces of nature at work, other than:
1. Don't gloat. Those radical enviros and lawyers mentioned did so starting in 2008 and before. Their supposed superior knowledge and misinformation mobilized us. It took 8 years and Congressional action, but we made progress based on a science based, groundwork effort. The radical enviros may mobilize similarly now. Let's recognize the reasonable gains that have been accomplished, and keep moving forward.
2. A biologically science based approach by the current nps Caha administration has provided reasonable access and new intensive monitoring by an unbiased, cooperative staff doing counts and direct observation without interference by outside enviro forces. A reasonable person may conclude that the 2017 results are likely the same as the last nine years of fabricated(?) data when the areas were isolated from all but a very select few.

For the first time in a long time, we have an nps staff and superintendent who are committed to balancing reasonable access with intensive monitoring and direct, not indirect, observation. For this we must be thankful, but never, ever, rest.

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Sea Urchin - (Send PM)
Member Since: 3/11/2011
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Total Posts: 148
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Date Posted: 7/26/2017 9:41 PM




Not exactly sure how to respond to the natural forces of nature at work, other than:
1. Don't gloat. Those radical enviros and lawyers mentioned did so starting in 2008 and before. Their supposed superior knowledge and misinformation mobilized us. It took 8 years and Congressional action, but we made progress based on a science based, groundwork effort. The radical enviros may mobilize similarly now. Let's recognize the reasonable gains that have been accomplished, and keep moving forward.
2. A biologically science based approach by the current nps Caha administration has provided reasonable access and new intensive monitoring by an unbiased, cooperative staff doing counts and direct observation without interference by outside enviro forces. A reasonable person may conclude that the 2017 results are likely the same as the last nine years of fabricated(?) data when the areas were isolated from all but a very select few.

For the first time in a long time, we have an nps staff and superintendent who are committed to balancing reasonable access with intensive monitoring and direct, not indirect, observation. For this we must be thankful, but never, ever, rest.





HNC,

Points taken, and appreciated. In response, no gloating was intended, as 2017 is no anomaly.

In our current world where “fake news” is a constant topic, the enviros you reference and their campaign of misinformation needs to be highlighted and countered with the same science they once touted against us.


Shorebird nesting success has been dismal since said enviros touted the one-year anomaly of PIPL “success” in 2010, as seen in the graphic below.


Their goal at the inception of the FR was stated as:

"Condition status was based on the park's short-term desired future conditions of 15 nesting pairs per year and an average fledge rate of 1.0 per pair as reflected in the recovery plan for the species (as defined in the Off-Road Vehicle Final Environmental Impact Statement)."

7 years later, the goal has only been met once, and in 2017 equaled exactly 0.00 chicks fledged. Notable is no major landfalling hurricanes during this period.


Let them mobilize as they may. We have the advantage of their own long term, irrefutable data on our side now, and own the scientific high ground.


While Spt. Hallac’s actions coupled with Congressional ones have brought some sanity back to CAHA access for all, your call for constant forward motion and no rest are consistent with what has been presented here, IMHO.



Thankful for the recent improvements? Yes. The new interdunal road from 49N is a Godsend.

Satisfied? No, not as long as the travesty that is the ludicrous and unused VFA at South Beach remains a reality, for starters.




This forum has gone dark on presenting these matters to the masses for far too long. Time to rekindle the fire.




RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: hatterasnc - (Send PM)
Member Since: 6/25/2007
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Total Posts: 3755
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Date Posted: 7/27/2017 5:34 AM




Sea Urchin , I wholeheartedly concur and applaud your data reduction and conclusions.

With the "Shelly" bar being exposed, there is a whole new population (generation?) of people experiencing Point access throughout the summer for the first time in a decade or more. I would suspect that most know little or nothing of the history of volunteer citizen hard works that brought this about. Thank you for bringing this back to the front.

Be well.

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plover”
Posted By: Beachmark - (Send PM)
Member Since: 9/18/2011
Location: Afton, VA
Total Posts: 4857
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Date Posted: 7/27/2017 7:59 AM




Have there ever been any better efforts at actually counting the Piping Plover populations? My limited readings included some observations that there may be wintering populations never properly counted that would put the population above the threshold for threatened status any way.

As with the HI population counts, I am very suspicious of any counts done by the enviro groups. The willingness of DoW to grossly misrepresent the long bridge build costs confirmed their dishonesty in such matters to me.

RE: So much for the CH NPS “Saving the Piping Plov
Posted By: Sea Urchin - (Send PM)
Member Since: 3/11/2011
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Total Posts: 148
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Date Posted: 7/27/2017 11:29 AM




Sea Urchin , I wholeheartedly concur and applaud your data reduction and conclusions.

With the "Shelly" bar being exposed, there is a whole new population (generation?) of people experiencing Point access throughout the summer for the first time in a decade or more. I would suspect that most know little or nothing of the history of volunteer citizen hard works that brought this about. Thank you for bringing this back to the front.

Be well.




My pleasure, sir.

You are correct that with the changes in the FR through Congressional action and a common sense-equipped NPS Spt., humans are once again thriving on the CHNS beaches.


It only took most of a decade, but it's a fight worth continuing.


Thanks go out to all the Sand Justice Warriors who made it happen, yourself and the commenters here included.



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