OBX Connection Home > OBX Connection Forum > What would happen to the oceanfront if......
What would happen to the oceanfront if......

By: Robert
8/28/2006 4:53 PM

.....all forms of Federal Flood Insurance was not available to new construction or change of ownership to those properties located in high risk areas, such as the oceanfront or flood hazard areas along rivers?

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By: SPARKY
8/28/2006 5:00 PM

than only the really wealthy would own there. it would eliminate the middle class. federal flood insurance only covers houses up to 250,000. thus only the very wealthy who could afford the hit would live there.

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By: Harbour Happy
8/28/2006 6:37 PM

Let's remember that NOBODY "lives" there. If there is a personal mailbox (the infallible sign of actual residency by one family) on the ocean side of the beach road, I can't remember it. There are about a dozen on the west side of the beach road, and lots between the highways--but those aren't the properties that cost a zillion and are falling into the surf.

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By: JennyK
8/28/2006 6:54 PM

What do you think on this? I'm interested as to what prompted you to ask the question.

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By: arnold
8/28/2006 7:06 PM


By: Robert
8/28/2006 10:46 PM

Because I have thought for most of my adult life that major problem with coastal management was the Federal government, specifically the Federal Flood Insurance program and the Corps of Engineers.

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By: Harbour Happy
8/29/2006 6:46 AM

Too simple to be wholly true. Many federal agencies have been involved with coastal management, since the days of Madison and Monroe. What now look like huge mistakes--building the artificial dune from Pea Island to Buxton & beyond, or hardening various shore areas--were done in good faith. And often, if the feds had not been the custodians of the coasts, much worse things would have been done. Who could do better? Not the states, and not the private sector, for sure.

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Actually, my family lives on the oceanfront. We use a mailbox at the post office.

The other point is that all the oceanfront homes (except the ones with school age children like mine) contribute far more to the tax base, through sales, occupancy and ad valorem tax, than they require in services. each oceanfront home that falls in will incrementally increase the tax burden on the remaining property.

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By:
8/29/2006 7:53 AM


I think the state of NC has done a much better job than the feds on coastal management. Check the difference between Sandbridge and the OBX.

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By:
8/29/2006 7:55 AM


By: Robert
8/29/2006 8:10 AM

True HH about mistakes of the past however the fact remains that the Feds have always taken the word of the engineers over science....and the engineer's philosophy is that they can control anything through "engineering". The list of the failures of the Army Corps of Engineers is long.

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No doubt, you are an exception when it comes to year-round oceanfront dwellers on the Outer Banks.
I must say that the argument that "oceanfront" cottages (you call them homes).."contribute far more to the tax base....than they require in services...." is a weak one.
Let's examine that.
(1) the very fact that the Outer Banks needs larger than average police forces, fire departments, water systems, EMS services, trash departments, landfills; and on and on is directly attributable to these cottages, be they oceanfront or westside. Fact is, these rentals and their occupants consume far more of these services than the average year-round resident in Dare County. (2) as to contributing "more in taxes", I would argue that the OWNERS of these "investments" pay ALMOST NOTHING in taxes to Dare County. THEY ARE TAX COLLECTORS, NOT TAXPAYERS. Any realtor/lawyer/accountant can tell you that. Sales and occupancy taxes are paid by the visitor, not the cottage owner who wants to take credit for them. And, trust me, the average rentor on the OBX could care less what happens to that cottage after his/her week has gone by. As to ad valorem taxes, which is paid by the investor, we all know that 98% of this is nothing but a tax write off; as is everytime the owners buys a lightbulb, a new matteras, new tv, etc. for his/her investment.
How many OBX locals have this luxury? In short, it is wrong to say that oceanfront homes are a luxury for OBX locals on account of what they contribute to the economy. Tell me, how many oceanfront property owners would swap their property for a home in Wanchese, Manteo, Manns Harbor, East Lake, Mashoes or even the westside of the bypass based solely on the fact of equity being the same? None.
I stand by the BeachHuggers who say that "we will always have a beach as long as this great sandbar is here." And, if we always have a beach, there will always be fools wanting to build a cottage on it as long as there are politicans foolish enough to make it easy for them to do it.

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By:
8/29/2006 8:34 AM


By: Harbour Happy
8/29/2006 9:06 AM


By: Ace Mclean
8/29/2006 9:36 AM

This is exactly my line of thinking. The fed's (meanging the Corps) MO is a goal and a project. If the goal is to protect some property, or provide a water source, or control flooding -then that is what they do. This is not a criticism, but just one way to look at their purpose.

I hate to bring it up, but the same is true with the problems in New Orleans - their goal was to control flooding. And that is still their goal, in spite of what science says about the environmental impact in the form of polution and shrinking buffer wetlands. BTW - you can talk about FEMA response, and killer hurricanes all you want, but the New Orleans flood was a man-made disaster.

Anyway, I think the same is true in regards to the current discussions about "protecting" the Outer Banks. We're not really protecting the natural environment, we're actually protecting people or property or an interest group or some combination of the same.

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By: JimmyZ
8/29/2006 12:58 PM

OK so you pushed my button. I do agree with the Beachhuggers statement but this is nothing new. This does not just apply to OBX this is fact everywhere. We all agree that money talks. Right?

As far item #1 doesn’t the fact that rentals require more services create jobs for locals/residents? If there were no jobs how many locals would be forced to move off OBX? How many people on this board could only wish they could live on OBX full time and be able to work there to pay their bills? If you are retired, since we don’t know who you are, then you are even more fortunate. Not many people will be able to retire to OBX because they will not be able to afford to buy a place to live.

Item #2 taxes. Yes it is true that taxes are deductible but to a point. If you look at the tax laws you will see that if your combined income for a married couple is more than $150,000 you cannot deduct any losses incurred in an investment property. You can however deduct certain expenses from income received thus reducing your taxes to NC. Your taxes are low compared to other States/Counties because of the occupancy taxes received from renters. In most cases this tax is 20-30% of town budgets. If there were no rental properties would you be able to handle a 20-30% tax increase? You said “How many locals have this luxury” of writing off taxes; only locals that own investment properties or businesses. But isn’t that true of any local from any State/County? Why should an oceanfront property owner move further west on the island? If they can afford oceanfront homes then more power to them. If someone in their will left you an oceanfront property would you refuse it?

I’m getting tired of hearing about how hard the locals have it on OBX. If you don’t like it no one is forcing you to live there. I see a lot of big beautiful homes and boats owned by locals. Things can’t be that bad. And if you despise the oceanfront homeowners I can just imagine what you think of those that live on Martin’s Point.

Stop hiding behind a fictitious name. If you have a stand be proud of it but at least put you name to it. Consider yourself privileged. You have the opportunity of waking up in paradise every day and breathing that fresh ocean air. You don’t have the travel nightmare most of us do by traveling miles to work for an hour each way entering a concrete jungle and breathing tainted air. Life’s a B***H and then you die. Enjoy what you have and don’t be jealous because others may have more. Have a beer and relax. Enjoy the fruits of your labor.

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Oceanfront cottages have been falling to the ocean on the Outer Banks for over 50 years. Little Turtle challenges you to find one "local OBX family," as you refer to them, who has had to leave here because someone else's oceanfront cottage collasped into the ocean. I will wait patiently.

Finally, if beach erosion is so much a threat to the Outer Banks economy, I challenge you to explain to me why the OBX has had unprecidented growth during the exact same 6 year period that beach nourishment has been 'on the table.' Why hasn't the threat of beach erosion scared oceanfront investors away?

I await your answer. Please be specific.

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By:
8/29/2006 1:40 PM


you are a master spin doctor ray, but your arguments hold no water.

1. can you argue that tourism isn't the number one revenue source of the obx? i didn't think so.

2. are houses falling into the ocean good for tourism? maybe you remember isabel? no vacation rentals = not good for the number one revenue source for the obx. tourism

3. your beach erosion - unprecedented growth argument seems to imply that erosion is good for the obx economy. even you can't believe that tripe. the growth in the obx has been up north where erosion is not a problem.

just say it like it is ray. you don't want to pay for beach nourishment. period. your motivation is purely financial just as it is for ocean front home owners. if your true concern was the environment you would be flatly against dredging the inlet. that's why you wouldn't touch that question by devil's advocate witha ten foot pole. you preferred to not answer the question in a very long winded way that completely dodged the question.

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By:
8/29/2006 3:03 PM


By: vanative
8/29/2006 3:06 PM

...i am pretty sure that is the first time i have heard you rant...you need to do it more often...sweet...i love this new board...:-0.........

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By: JimmyZ
8/29/2006 4:07 PM

If someone with a lot of money wants to buy an oceanfront house/lot knowing that it may get washed into the ocean, who are we to say no. Besides if an oceanfront home is worth millions, flood insurance only pays a max of $250,000 if it goes out to sea. Think about that loss for awhile. Some people have a lot of money and don't care and are willing to take their chances. Most probably only want the house to last their lifetime anyway. Some people can't believe that some oceanfront homes in Kitty Hawk are going for under $500,000. Wow! What a steal. Little are they aware, or told, that this home has a life expectancy of 5 years or less.

As far as your 6 year growth/BN, It's strictly coincidental. Before the crash of 2000 a lot of people made a lot of money in the stock market, company options, etc. A lot of these people bought land on OBX and had homes built or bought spec homes. In 2000 to 2003 home prices on OBX were a joke (low) compared to what we were paying in the northeast. So people bought real estate for their next investment and have done very well. Take a look around your neighborhood. How many locals/residents cashed out since prices went crazy? I bet quite a few.

As far as my comment about "local OBX family" I didn't make that and I don't associate anyone leaving because of loosing oceanfront homes. But I did say that if there were no rentals on OBX that a lot of locals would have to leave because of lack of work.
I bet you have access to town tax records, since they are public knowledge, so you must see where some of the mega oceanfront homes are being taxed $25,000 a year by the county/state and they probably use less services a year than you. If that house goes into the ocean someone has to make up that tax loss. You don't think they are going to ever cut the budget do you?

Just to go on record I am opposed to BN. Not just because they may impose a tax on everyone to get the money but because based on my investigation, through the internet many hours, it does not work and is bad for wildlife. Nature should be allowed to take/put the oceanfront where it wants to. Unfortunately zoning didn't take all this into account years ago. As far as the inlet, I am not sure how to permanetly solve that problem. Will putting up jetties harm the adjoining beaches? Constant dredging costs a lot of money. Why should the federal government be responsible for giving states money for this? What is the rate of return on their investment? Shouldn't the States pay for their own dredging? The government should only get involved if it's needed for the military or the inlet is used by international shipping.

Once again stop hiding behind your skirt name of "Little Turtle". Identify yourself to the board. Get a pair of gonads and stand up for what you believe in.

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By: dennis in FBG-VA/KDH
8/29/2006 4:44 PM

What u are saying makes a lot of sense...
that old saying:
you can fool some of the people some of the time,
you can fool some of the people all of the time,
BUT
you can't fool all the people all the time...I believe little turtle can't fool anyone anytime!
Happy Birthday!

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By: SPARKY
8/29/2006 4:46 PM

well said sharky!

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By: SPARKY
8/29/2006 5:07 PM

though i do not agree with your opinion on the issue of beach nourishment, i believe you stated your opinions concisely and truthfully.

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Jimmy,
Do you usually jump on everyone who posts something and does not identify themself? Or just those who you disagree with.
For my part, I really don't care what anybody's real name is as long as they don't make personal attacks.
When that happens, it is totally wrong, and Little Turtle might start snapping.

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By:
8/29/2006 5:30 PM


By: JimmyZ
8/29/2006 5:34 PM

Believe me I am not attacking you or anyone else. Just stating my opinion and puttin my name on it. You should do the same.

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By: JimmyZ
8/29/2006 5:37 PM

Thanks for the early birthday wish. I see you beat me by a day, not age. Lol! I hope you have a great birthday with the family.

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By: bobbyg
8/29/2006 5:44 PM

Well said JimmyZ. I would like to add that even if an expense or tax is deductible, it is still at least 60% out of Hip Pocket National Bank! And all flows of money, increasing, decreasing or staying the same have a direct cause and effect on any economy.



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