I was reading in one of my bird watching groups, yes I love birding! That Piping Plovers have been spotted here in Indiana. There was such a buzz on the birding group over the plovers and all I could think was Ack!!!!!
I had no clue that they were here nor would I wish that nightmare on anyone!

Well I started researching the little puff balls and yes the Great lakes group is endangered, and an area in Indiana is listed as a Critical Habitat. I never knew! Though I could not find in a very quick search any nesting numbers here; most are in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Canada. But I did find this one little note about a certain plover interesting.

Did you know that if a nest is abandoned they take the eggs and if viable the incubate them the release them when at an appropriate age? how cool is that! True work to try to continue the species instead of let nature take its course kind of! They talked about keeping nesting areas free of brush and tall grasses to maintain proper and safe nesting areas....hmmmm two things you do not see at CHNS. Now if it were really about preservation of the species down at CHNS soooo much more would and could be done!!!

here is the little article about the plover....

This Plover's History from the Piping Plover - Great Lakes Population
In 2011, this plover came from a nest that was abandoned at Dimmick's Point on North Manitou Island, part of Sleeping Bear Dunes National Park. The nest was abandoned when its mother was likely predated by a Merlin. The eggs were brought to the Salvage Captive Rearing Center where they were incubated and the chicks raised until they could fly on their own. They were then released back into the wild. Against long odds (only 25% of young piping plovers survive to return to breed) this plover migrated to its wintering ground somewhere on the southern Atlantic or Gulf Coasts and then migrated back to the Great Lakes in the spring of 2012. It claimed a territory at Whitefish Point near the new refuge property where it found a mate and successfully fledged 4 chicks of its own. It has returned to Whitefish Point again this season and is currently incubating a nest near its same territory as last year.

We know this history because the bird was banded as a chick, so we can follow its movements.

very cool!

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Some places really do care about the birds. As I am very well aware that you know, Hatteras NPS does not act that way. They only do what the SELC and the dis-honorable judge "Boil" instruct them to do. And the SELC doesn't put the birds first. Their main interest lies in the billable hours and legal fees they can garner from the NPS, paid for by the American taxpayers.

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Are you listening, Radical Ed? This is the kind of stuff folks need to be aware of, who honestly don't understand the Hatteras situation. There are ways to actually help the birds recover from being threatened, endangered, etc. What they are doing on Hatteras is far, far from it. Also take into consideration that Hatteras is on the extreme edge of breeding habitat for species like the piping plover. There is another side to this story that many folks choose to conveniently overlook.

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a couple of points about my post that I find important is that this is being done by National Park Service!!! So they would fall under the same bosses as CHNS the DOI. But so different in their way of trying to preserve the species. Again at CHNS it is not about preservation.

Also only 25% survive to breed. So if we fledge say 5 this year, we can only get 1 maybe 2 if we are lucky back the next year. We are not able to increase the population very quickly with our present fledge rate and present practice of preservation.

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Are you listening, Radical Ed? This is the kind of stuff folks need to be aware of, who honestly don't understand the Hatteras situation. There are ways to actually help the birds recover from being threatened, endangered, etc. What they are doing on Hatteras is far, far from it. Also take into consideration that Hatteras is on the extreme edge of breeding habitat for species like the piping plover. There is another side to this story that many folks choose to conveniently overlook.

Thanks for singling me out by name, Bluejay.
So I guess the only alternative would to let all of the ORV's back on and let it be "business as usual" since the birds are screwed, eh?
If that's not the case, why single me out? Explain your plan to help the species proliferate. I'm listening.

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Ed, there is no plan.
God is God, and we are not.
We've been down the road of trying to play Mother nature as well. It was also a failure.

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" this is being done by National Park Service"

What is being done by the NPS? Salvage Captive REaring Center is not part of NPS and is not funded by the Federal government.

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You left out the part about the combination of "federal, state and provincial agencies, nonprofits, university researchers, tribes and dozens and dozens of regular folks who volunteer". And the part about the "remote and undeveloped dunes and beaches" and the refuges and the words private donations. And I don't see a word about ORVs driving in these areas. I do see things like stay on the trails and the habitat is easily damaged.

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You left out the part about the combination of "federal, state and provincial agencies, nonprofits, university researchers, tribes and dozens and dozens of regular folks who volunteer". And the part about the "remote and undeveloped dunes and beaches" and the refuges and the words private donations. And I don't see a word about ORVs driving in these areas. I do see things like stay on the trails and the habitat is easily damaged.

What does ORVs have to do with it? Pedestrians have lost just as much access.

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A big part of the problem is perception.

The Outer Banks is not a particularly well suited breeding ground for PPs. As you can see, it's at the very southern end of their breeding range.

Even with Herculean efforts, the breeding population of +/- 12 pairs has just barely held its own over the last decade despite the intervention of well meaning people.

The population is not endangered, and the population is increasing. Not closing large sections of CHNSRA will not doom the species to extinction. Look at the large breeding areas in the Midwest. Look at the Great Lakes population expanding. IIndiana isn't even shown on the map. It was only about 25 years ago the population expanded onto the Outer Banks. This is not one of their historical nesting grounds.

The Unholy Trinity maintain that breeding pairs must be isolated from all human contact. There is no scientific evidence for this, and it is contrary to practices in other areas where nests are relocated by wildlife personnel. Some observations in NJ suggest that PPs seek out nesting sites near humans to deter predators. One pair even built a nest in the middle of a dune walkover.

Click to follow link...

As folks have pointed out before, this isn't about the birds. There is plenty of documentation about the underlying agenda elsewhere.

As a former supervisory environmental engineer with the federal government, I can say that this is one of the worst examples of tree hugging I've ever seen, ranking up there with the spotted owl fiasco, that has been thoroughly debunked.

NPS has been unable to produce any peer reviewed studies to back up their practices. All they've said was that somebody way back when thought it was a good idea.

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A big part of the problem is perception.

The Outer Banks is not a particularly well suited breeding ground for PPs. As you can see, it's at the very southern end of their breeding range.

Even with Herculean efforts, the breeding population of +/- 12 pairs has just barely held its own over the last decade despite the intervention of well meaning people.

The population is not endangered, and the population is increasing. Not closing large sections of CHNSRA will not doom the species to extinction. Look at the large breeding areas in the Midwest. Look at the Great Lakes population expanding. It was only about 25 years ago the population expanded onto the Outer Banks. This is not one of their historical nesting grounds.

The Unholy Trinity maintain that breeding pairs must be isolated from all human contact. There is no scientific evidence for this, and it is contrary to practices in other areas where nests are relocated by wildlife personnel. Some observations in NJ suggest that PPs seek out nesting sites near humans to deter predators. One pair even built a nest in the middle of a dune walkover.

Click to follow link...

As folks have pointed out before, this isn't about the birds. There is plenty of documentation about the underlying agenda elsewhere.

As a former supervisory environmental engineer with the federal government, I can say that this is one of the worst examples of tree hugging I've ever seen, ranking up there with the spotted owl fiasco, that has been thoroughly debunked.

NPS has been unable to produce any peer reviewed studies to back up their practices. All they've said was that somebody way back when thought it was a good idea.

Well said, robschonk! Well said.

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www.boston.com/lifestyle/...

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Ok, I don't think I said anything about orv access or any access..
What I believe I post was that. " In 2011, this plover came from a nest that was abandoned at Dimmick's Point on North Manitou Island, part of Sleeping Bear Dunes National Park. The nest was abandoned when its mother was likely predated by a Merlin. The eggs were brought to the Salvage Captive Rearing Center where they were incubated and the chicks raised until they could fly on their own. They were then released back into the wild. "

The nest was in sleeping bear dunes, part of the national park service, then taken to the rearing center. Did not say the rearing center was part of the park service, just that up there they the park service is trying to do more to keep the species going.
Yes here are private, state, local etc. groups also involved in the Great Lakes piping plover group.
My point is actually mute and not understood or am I here to argue, just to give an example of more that could be done by the group at chns.

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Rob, your map doesn't have the piping plovers nesting in Indiana. What I found is that they haven't nested here since the early 1900's, but an area of beach in porter county is listed as a critical habitat for them.

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Rob, your map doesn't have the piping plovers nesting in Indiana. What I found is that they haven't nested here since the early 1900's, but an area of beach in porter county is listed as a critical habitat for them.

Google on piping plover range map and you'll find dozens of maps. Only one shows Indiana within its range. I attribute this to the pp actually expanding its range.

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Ok, I don't think I said anything about orv access or any access..
What I believe I post was that. " In 2011, this plover came from a nest that was abandoned at Dimmick's Point on North Manitou Island, part of Sleeping Bear Dunes National Park. The nest was abandoned when its mother was likely predated by a Merlin. The eggs were brought to the Salvage Captive Rearing Center where they were incubated and the chicks raised until they could fly on their own. They were then released back into the wild. "

The nest was in sleeping bear dunes, part of the national park service, then taken to the rearing center. Did not say the rearing center was part of the park service, just that up there they the park service is trying to do more to keep the species going.
Yes here are private, state, local etc. groups also involved in the Great Lakes piping plover group.
My point is actually mute and not understood or am I here to argue, just to give an example of more that could be done by the group at chns.

Exactly.

If NPS was interested in increasing the number of PP, they could take all the eggs from the nests one year, and contract with some chicken farmer on the mainland to breed them, we could be knee deep in PPs in a few years.

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Your map shows a Vagrant in Mexico.

That's a bit stereotypical don't you think?

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Click to follow link..." class="img-responsive" />

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It must be an illegal immigrant that crossed the border heading south. Boy, is he confused!

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You know if they would gather the eggs at the very beginning and incubate them, the birds would renest or attempt to. Which is obvious with the number of listed pairs of oystercatchers and number of nest.
This is not exact science, or even close, I am not a bio tech, just a medic, but I have slept in a holiday express before. Let's play devils advocate for a while and try to help these birds out. The Piping Ploves made 14 nest and lay 4 eggs per nest. That is 56 eggs. Incubate those eggs then re release them at fledge time, holy cow would you be adding a ton more plovers to the mix than the 5 we fledged this year. Even if only half of the gathered hatched or a quarter you would leaps above letting them do it on their own.

Now the oyster catchers...38 nest, how many eggs per nest? 1-4 with 3 the average. 38 nest and 3 eggs per nest 114 eggs, another holy cow! We only fledged 9. Think what could be done to increase them if we would incubate the eggs. Even if we only took half the eggs. Oh my goodness.

I have no idea on the terns or skimmers, they do not give us data on them. Also this would work on turtles also, no nest lost to predation or storms.....wow!!

These are not new concepts, they are practiced in other areas run by the NPS. So IMO, not all is being done that could be done, what is being done is what easy for the park . service, throw up signs, trap other animals and let nature take its course. Not helping them to prosper and survive.
Again my two cents, which does not amount to even that really.

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Thanks for singling me out by name, Bluejay.
So I guess the only alternative would to let all of the ORV's back on and let it be "business as usual" since the birds are screwed, eh?
If that's not the case, why single me out? Explain your plan to help the species proliferate. I'm listening.

Ed, I singled you out because you recently commented that no one is contributing anything meaningful to the conversation with regard to access. Have you read what's been presented here? Do you understand that there is far more that the NPS can be doing besides simply systematically eliminating humans from the beaches? You keep wanting to point to ORVs, but these closures keep EVERYONE off the beaches that were set aside for recreation.

Let me ask you a direct question; and let me also single out jrsilvergold. Don't hedge, answer it. Do you support U.N. Agenda 21?

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*SIGH*
I just researched "Agenda 21" and I simply haven't the interest to read all 40 chapters.

ONCE AGAIN...
[b]I don't care[/b] if a few miles of beach are cordoned off time and again for the proliferation of wildlife, so it doesn't matter. There's plenty of beach to go around. PLENTY. MILES.

AGAIN, until they close so much of the coastline that I'm penned in like one of the poor horses on Ocracoke, I'll drive for a few minutes to get to a stretch of beach I believe I'll enjoy. From where I vacation, miles and miles of it are wide-effing-open to humans not three minutes in either direction, and that's on precious Hatteras Island! *GASP* There's not three humans per 100 yards on these stretches either! *Double-Gasp*
So someone a long time ago "set it aside" for recreational use. Who cares? Your lawn chair, beach towel and Corona umbrella are more important than the survival of the local fauna?
Sorry, but I think losing a few miles of beach to wildlife as long as there's hundreds more miles of open beach is no big deal.
NO BIG DEAL.
Everyone says if the Park Service "really cares", they'd do more than close a few select portions of beach.
What do they need to do, build Turtle Condos and Plover Spas? I'd say keeping people and their 4X4's away from the animal's homes is a good start.

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"What we've got here is a failure to communicate."

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I disagree almost totally with what you're saying, mainly because much of what you're saying is simply misleading. For instance, you are making the assumption that all this elimination of human presence is helping the animals. You simply shrug it off as being a slight inconvenience that affects only selfish people. It goes way deeper than that, and if you can't see that, you never will. I think our difference of opinion may have a lot to do with where we come from, me vs. you, geographically. I suspect if you did read just a few of those 40 chapters, you'd probably be in favor of Agenda 21. That's where the fundamental divide is, that separates our philosophies.

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Hey Ed, you know I am not talking about access in this discussion, heck I dont even get to drive on the beach, I have to hike it. And at the rate of deterioration of my disease processes, my hikes will become limited eventually . Until then I try to hike every mile possible.

all I am putting out there is alternatives to help the little buggers thrive. I have always felt there had to be other options to help perpetuate a species than to just put a fence around it. A fence does nothing for protecting them from the harsh environment or predators. A fence does nothing to help them to adapt, killing its predators or totally eliminating human contact doesn't help either. I am not saying the fences need to go down while they are sitting on nest either, but I feel a combination of letting the birds nest, and incubate the eggs could help. Maybe? So if we are going to attempt to make an effort a true and reasonable effort should be made.

I cannot make the choices as to how the wildlife is cared for here. I am sure any suggestions I have given have just fallen on deaf ears. I am not a biologist, or bio tech or resource specialist, just a common person who cares.

I find it interesting how different it is at other places. That is all.

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