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Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?

Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




I’m sure some here might have seen that viral story of a FL house that burned down during Helene due to a flooded EV parked in the garage.

As a sand bar resident I’m grappling with how things are working out for the much smaller batteries used in your newest basic hybrid like Toyota (these are even smaller batteries than used in the plug-in hybrids, which are in turn smaller than a full EV battery). I’ve read reports of the HV cables connecting the battery to the e-motor prematurely corroding from winter salt use on roads several years ago, but I also get the impression that’s been mostly addressed. Plenty of salt water on roads here to deal with year round well short of flood conditions.

Any expert opinions or real life experiences out there? Thanks!


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RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




The most important one to remember is ebikes. Not because they're more dangerous, but because they are not something people actively think about as a danger they need to mitigate. My friend's neigh's house survive both hurricanes with flooding... and then almost lost the home to fire when a ebike in the garage caught fire because it had gotten wet. They were lucky that they have a dual smoke detector in their garage. Most people don't. (If you have a garage, it's worth the investment in one, especially if it's an attached garage. Combustion engines also cause fires, which is why insurance is significantly higher on a home with an attached vs. separate garage. The ebikes are a quirky hidden danger because bikes just aren't things we tend to worry about after a storm. If you get water damage, photograph them for insurance claims and get them away from your home.

Both electric car batteries and standard car batteries are explosion/fire risks if they have had contact with salt water. That's why you evacuate with your vehicles if you might get feet of flooding from storm surge. The car will be toast if left, and if someone tries to start it vs. towing it to the junkyard, the car can catch fire. It's scary, especially in storm aftermath when first responders are stretched thin.

Just being in salt air or driving through some salt puddles is not a risk, though everything corrodes faster at the beach, so nothing will last as long as inland.

They warn not to drive though the water on NC 12 because it can be deeper than you think and you can hydroplane, etc. but also you can get salt water into the electrical system splashing through, and end up with a car fire later.

Anything with an an electrical system that gets salt water contamination is also toast, so flooding will mean all new appliances needed.

Good reminder to check your kitchen fire extinguisher, your larger one for the grill, and the car extinguisher in your trunk. Better safe than sorry. Never used the car one on my own, but did use it once on someone else's and it helped control enough to get people out before the tires blew and everyone in a 2 mile radius needed new shorts.




RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




Any expert opinions or real life experiences out there? Thanks!

targadave


I'm thinking you're gonna not get much perspective from @here.

A few that might help (didn't read all):

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and more rabbit hole after rabbit hole in sub/reddits

As far as E bikes, I don't own one, but a neighbor has a few - for long term storage, he pulls the battery and puts the bike in a (literally) big plastic bag. But, as we know, removing the battery just isn't realistic in a hybrid vehicle. Everything I hear is kinda what we all know, just keeping everything dry. That, and fluid film lightly applied then wiped off connectors


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




I definitely understand that poorly sealed Li batteries and saltwater don’t mix. Still, hybrids (not EV’s) are showing up everywhere and from what I can tell they seem to be getting by reasonably well in these seaside locations just as they are getting by with Canadian road salt winters.

Not surprising on the e-bike batteries. My new Foil Drive power rig uses a decent sized Li battery (probably around e-bike size) that is made to operate in full-on ocean surf conditions. They’ve been around for several years now and working great…………….. with proper sealing





RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




A hybrid? Maybe practical but maybe not depending on the terrain and driving habits. I don't think the Toyota plug connection corrosion fix has had sufficient time to see if it works or just lasts long enough to beat the warranty coverage.

EV's or plug in hybrids? If your car has a battery charger connection and you aren't connecting it to a windmill or a solar panel, you're just pretending. Corrosion issues? Stray voltages? Galvanic corrosion? Yup, they got them too. Subsequently, the new and used EV markets are quickly cooling off, signalling that people have learned the pitfalls and expense of owning one.

The only rechargeable li-ion batteries I own are for my power tools and I try to be mindful of the risks. The biggest ones are 400mAH (far, far less than an e-bike). I store them in my metal tool chest in the garage that has a smoke detector. The chest is on wheels which may make it possible (hopefully) to push the whole thing out onto the driveway in an emergency, before the house catches on fire.


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




If the question is compatibility of salty coastal environment and full/hybrid, the risks are significant. Maybe for someone on the peninsula (less "weather") w a proper garage/charging set up that is running 158/beach road only.

But, like 'em or not, the 'lectric auto is here to stay (hybrids and "full"). Not sure where the declining sales data originated, but sell through data shows no sign of slowing down. Incentive reductions might impact sales, but for an individual that is driving the suburban office/school/soccer/after school to and fro (around 100 miles a day) the benefits are significant ...the greatest being a MPG equivalency of 50/60ish MPG...some higher. And for a "full" EV, no gas stations, just plug in at night. Out of warrantee battery replacement is still a thing, but as the automobile continues it's involvement into, sadly, an appliance perhaps, we'll just see cars designed run 5ish years then get "recycled". Me? Still an ICE guy...but, dang, those electric cars can flat out MOVE!

Click to follow link...

non .gov reporting:

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RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




Since you are willing to spend the time to post links to supportive but dishonest half-truths, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and buy a few EV's? The question answers itself.
USA Flag


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




I see enough hybrids and EVs here above the bridge with OBX plates to think they work well enough. Or perhaps these owners trade their cars in often enough they don't see any problems due to longevity in the environment.

On the bright side, if you get hit with a major flooding event on the sound side, Dave, maybe the car will burn up completely making the insurance process easier. Just park in the street if flooding is expected. Thumbs up


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




Since you are willing to spend the time to post links to supportive but dishonest half-truths, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and buy a few EV's? The question answers itself.
USA Flag

Greg MD


Nah, I’m coastal - not a fit for us. Only posted the links to point out that EV (hybrid or full) are NOT declining in sales. It’s the future, while perhaps not for everyone, they are here to stay. And, for many, the economies of operation are (vs ICE) compelling.


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




The ONLY reason for ev's having any attractive qualities recently is the price of gas. It almost tripled and fell back to only double (gee, thanks) what it cost in 2020. How'd that happen so quickly and why? Another question that answers itself.


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




The ONLY reason for ev's having any attractive qualities recently is the price of gas. It almost tripled and fell back to only double (gee, thanks) what it cost in 2020. How'd that happen so quickly and why? Another question that answers itself.

Greg MD


Nah…again ;). Also about reliability, being wickedly quick (full ev) and virtually zero maintenance costs (excepting tires). MPG north of 50MPG isn’t data to sneeze at either…even if gas was mid $2/gal

And to the last point, c’mon, you’re an educated individual, it’s a global market thing combined with record domestic production numbers. Not an exec branch thing.


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




Hahaha! You're correct, I am educated. Salt, metal and volts don't mix. Salt is used on roads in 28 states and there's another 11 states that are coastal. So that's 39 states ( check my math Laughing smiley ) where, by your own logic, ev's are 'not a fit for us'.


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




Hahaha! You're correct, I am educated. Salt, metal and volts don't mix. Salt is used on roads in 28 states and there's another 11 states that are coastal. So that's 39 states ( check my math Laughing smiley ) where, by your own logic, ev's are 'not a fit for us'.

Greg MD


C’mon, stop the deflection, not all coastal is “coastal” to the extent HI is…you know this.

Road salt being a potential EV issue? Really?

I’m out - but go ahead, I know getting in the last word is your “thing”



RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




Nope, don't need a last word. The cat lets the mouse go when he tires of it, knowing the mouse will come back again to play another day.


Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water




So here are some numbers. A plain Jane Toyota RAV4 Hypbrid uses a small 1.6 kWH battery (NiMH in the base models and Li in the higher models). All it’s intended to do is “assist” the gas motor. The plug-in RAV4 hybrid (Prime model) uses a much larger 18.1 kWH battery with larger e-motors and can provide about 40 mi of EV only coverage before the gas motor takes over. A full EV like the Tesla Model 3 has a battery size that ranges from 50-82 kWH since it’s fully dependent on the e-motors. That’s a huge difference in battery size, each with a very different purpose and risk factors. That 1.6 kWH battery is stored right beneath the rear passenger seat inside the car (at least in the case of the RAV4).

The Li battery in my ocean compatible Foil Drive system is 500 wH. That’s almost 1/3rd the size of that RAV4 hybrid battery, and it basically gets trashed around in rough salt water conditions inside a sealed case with no issues. That includes the HV cable connecting it a 40V t electric motor driving a three blade prop.

So with all that being said I think ok with a 1.6kWH hybrid car battery in a car running around on the island here. It’s obviously not gonna be a beach driver, and there will always be some flood risk, battery or no battery. Have my good ole RAM 1500 with a (now rapidly disappearing!) 5.7 hemi for beach use.






RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?






…basically gets trashed around in rough salt water conditions inside a sealed case with no issues…


*Sealed* I think that’s the key word…I’d bet engineering folks are scrambling to find “better” ways to seal and connect their auto battery assys (not 12v ICE)

It’ll happen.

Who knew that a little explosion…oh wait, multiple explosions, could be harnessed to propel an ICE vehicle down the road….there was a time when it seemed improbable If it’s important we’ll (US ingenuity) get it done.




RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?






…basically gets trashed around in rough salt water conditions inside a sealed case with no issues…


*Sealed* I think that’s the key word…I’d bet engineering folks are scrambling to find “better” ways to seal and connect their auto battery assys (not 12v ICE)

It’ll happen.

Who knew that a little explosion…oh wait, multiple explosions, could be harnessed to propel an ICE vehicle down the road….there was a time when it seemed improbable If it’s important we’ll (US ingenuity) get it done.

OceanBlue


When that happened I sold my buggy whip business right away...


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?






…basically gets trashed around in rough salt water conditions inside a sealed case with no issues…


*Sealed* I think that’s the key word…I’d bet engineering folks are scrambling to find “better” ways to seal and connect their auto battery assys (not 12v ICE)

It’ll happen.

OceanBlue

Agreed. Those small 1.6kWH batteries fit in a special housing beneath the rear seat in the cabin and includes an electric cooling fan along with an intake air filter that needs to be kept clean. So they are obviously not water sealed, and some engineering effort would be required to make them sealed AND cooled. Certainly doable

If water seriously floods the cabin then yep, this battery will fail along with a bunch of other electrical stuff. In the 17 years we’ve been here we’ve never come close to getting water in the cabin of any of our own cars but we’re pretty cautious around high water and do the typical prep for hurricanes. I think I can deal with the risk for 1.6 kWH, but I wouldn’t be too keen on an 18 kWH battery, let alone a 60 kWH one, at least right now




RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




"EV share of new car market
In 2023, 21.4% of new car sales in California were EVs, which is nearly three times the U.S. average of 7.5%"

And every U.S. taxpayer helped them pay for it.


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




I think a hybrid EV can be a viable vehicle at the beach and long term. Our daughter has a 2009 Saturn Aura hybrid that has been an excellent car with no mechanical issues either to the drivetrain or battery. After 15 years the battery still has 92% capacity.and we have had no water intrusion issues and that was even with a water issue because the sunroof would leak into the floorboards ( the drain pipes in the headliner are known to come loose, I suggest they be reattached with superglue)

Now as far as saltwater..... I will say that you don't actually have to immerse a vehicle down here to get saltwater intrusion. You will get it every morning you are down here with the morning dew. The wind driven water during storms and simply driving through small puddles.

We looked at adding a charger for EV's in our rental here and the co-op said in very plain language to wait because of our proximity to water and that while the charger is water "resistant" the connections to and from them are not and will eventually get moisture into them.
I think we need to seperate the EV chargers from the hybrids because while they are both going the same direction they are doing it differently the hybrids are a fairly sealed system in the vehicle while EV's have a charging port and the associated chargers that need to be considered.


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?






When that happened I sold my buggy whip business right away...

Squid Pro Quo


And to think one of the biggest issues of that day was what to do with the massive amounts of horse poop covering US cities streets.

Time marches on...but, sigh...I'll prob be a "gasser" to the end


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




The Scout Traveler SUV looks nice, has good ground clearance and some/all versions have front and rear lockers.

Then I watched the promo vids and saw the high lift to the tailgate/bed and limited storage space in the back.
The batteries consume a lot of room.








RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?





Ford Bronco ICE "Outer Banks" curb weight: 3467 pounds

OBX4USALL

You are about 1000-1700 pounds off, but I'd expect that with your sources. Whistle

Not sure where you got the 7700 pounds from (maybe mixing up the towing weight?), but it will likely be above 6000 pounds.

Agreed it might not be the best for deep sand, but will probably be just fine with aired down tires. I've seen heavier vehicles have no problems.


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




I wonder how twisted the progressive mind must be, to be able to grasp the knowledge of the volume of earth mined and the pollution that's created to manufacture a single vehicle battery, and yet still stand there with a straight face and say that battery-powered vehicles are good for the planet.

But wait, there's more. Then they say that a battery powered vehicle doesn't fit their needs, which translates into 'battery-powered vehicles suck'. Hahaha! Loons!


RE: Consensus on the newest hybrids around salt water?




Thought I’d follow up on my original post. Guess things got a bit contentious but perhaps to be expected. Anyway the wife ended up selling her 2012 Subaru Forester (that had served us very well) and getting a RAV4 Hybrid (just the basic hybrid, not the plug-in). She loves it so far. About a 590 mi range and 42 mpg around town with 8” of decent ground clearance.

We drove a Chinese made hybrid (Haval) around the Australian coast for 3 months last winter, and a RAV4 hybrid in Norway this last summer. Really liked the seamless ICE like operation. Drove the Haval on a few Aussie “hard” beaches. Those Norwegian hill climbs and cliff side switchbacks also made for an interesting test ground. (I did notice that Norwegian’s luv their Tesla’s, though not as many in the remote mountainous areas)

The only hack I’ve seen infrequently mentioned about dealing with basic hybrids around saltwater environments is to use a lanolin protectant spray on one or two of the critical HV (240V!) connectors under the car. Interesting because that’s exactly what I spray on my 40V Foil-Drive emotor stator unit after each session. Oh well, time will tell. Cheers!

Side note: Not much into techno gimmicks but we do love the “ birdseye view” cam…….




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