Endangered Species?

Endangered Species?




Just for grins and giggles, Google and I collaborated to find out exactly which endangered species were present within the boundaries of CHNSRA.

I kept running into the phrase "threatened and endangered". Two completely different sets of laws.

www.nps.gov/caha/naturescience/index.htm

Finally, in the EIS, I found out. One endangered species. The Leatherback Turtle.

www.parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=358&projectID=10641&documentID=37448

There were NO leatherback nests in 2013, and only one stranding.

www.nps.gov/caha/naturescience/upload/2013-Sea-Turtle-Annual-Report.pdf

In fact, when a leatherback nested in 2007, it made the news.

www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2007/07/leatherback-turtle-nests-cape-hatteras

www.hamptonroads.com/node/290481

OTOH, the Seabeach Amaranth is listed, even though it hasn't been observed here since 2005.

Do a search of endangered species in the area where you live. I'll bet you find a bunch. Hatteras has NONE in residence, and the leatherback just visited long enough to get stranded. Stranded, not nesting.

Just how many times have you heard the phrase Endangered Species used to justify the regulations that have been shoved down our throats? It just ain't so.





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RE: Endangered Species?




Constantly, I see NPS use it repeatedly in their literarue and publications about CHNSRA, and of course the enviros spout is all the time. I knew the piping plover was not and that burns me up to have this all falsely portrayed to the general public.


RE: Endangered Species?




Do you have any examples of where the NPS has said Piping Plovers were an "endangered species"? I'm not saying they don't but it might be because you don't understand the Endangered Species Act. I believe most of the confusion arises because PP are listed as "threatened " under the ESA, a designation made by the ESA. Once "listed" the FWS decides the general management parameters for how the species will be managed unless it is a marine mammal not on land. The misunderstanding could be as simple as someone saying they caught some "Macks" on the beach and you wondering were they King Mackeral or Boston Mackeral when everyone who knows anything about fishing here realies if you are on HI fishing from the beach you are talking about Spanish Mackerals. For an animal or plant to be listed at all under the ESA means a great deal, some people think that the different designation are just a measurement of how endangered a plant or animal is because it has been listed by the ESA. You can't expect every organization to explain these things in detail because you have a prejudice with certain groups and government agencies.


RE: Endangered Species?




I love animals, birds, turtles, all creatures except some bugs and some venomous snakes. Okay I worry about the gator that lives right behind my house too since he could snap up my dogs. However in the grand scheme of things I can't figure out why protecting plovers is such a big deal on Hatteras Island? It is clear that places like The Point are not a good place for them to survive, if they choose to nest there better to encourage them to move elsewhere, incubate their eggs etc. For thousands of years critters have become extinct simply because they could not adapt.


RE: Endangered Species?




Rob that's right, there are no endangered species found the OBX. The NPS has dishonestly included "endangered" in there mantra solely for political purposes. Here is a little food for thought:

Leatherback turtles nest in the thousands on the beaches of Florida and south. It is an anomaly for a Leatherback to found anywhere on the OBX. Some biologists theorized they only appear here when blown off course by strong tropical storms or hurricanes.

Seabeach Amaranth is another anomaly for the OBX and usually appear the following year after strong tropical storms and hurricanes that lash the coast. The NPS conveniently ignored studies that have shown the Seabeach Amaranth primarly only thrives on southern facing beaches and the OBX are mostly eastern facing beaches.

The years NPS/Audubon claimed the number of piping plover breeding pairs was down at CHNSRA, in actuality the number of pairs increased in hundred miles north in VA. Also during that time, the overall the Atlantic coast piping plover population had increased over 50%.

Bottom line the NPS, DOI, SELC, Audubon, DoW, and NPCA are all being purposely dishonest to deceive people into supporting their position . Whistle


RE: Endangered Species?




Fishinggeek,

That is incorrect Leatherback turtles are endangered and they have nested in CHNS in the past. I have looked and I can't find anywhere where the NPS or Audubon states piping plovers are endangered species . Please list a quote and a footnote to support your asseration.
Threatened species are identified and listed under the "Endangered Species Act". What part of that can't you understand?



RE: Endangered Species?




Fishinggeek,

That is incorrect Leatherback turtles are endangered and they have nested in CHNS in the past. I have looked and I can't find anywhere where the NPS or Audubon states piping plovers are endangered species . Please list a quote and a footnote to support your asseration.
Threatened species are identified and listed under the "Endangered Species Act". What part of that can't you understand?


Where the heck did you look?! I see SEVERAL references where Audubon says the Piping Plover is "endangered"!



RE: Endangered Species?




Fishinggeek,

I have looked and I can't find anywhere where the NPS or Audubon states piping plovers are endangered species . Please list a quote and a footnote to support your asseration.



>Click to follow link...

But, you already knew that, didn't you Walker?

The three tactics of a liar: question a subject, change the subject, then insult the messenger of the subject.

Wait for it...but wait, I meant the Great Lakes population!


RE: Endangered Species?




Fishinggeek, That is incorrect Leatherback turtles are endangered and they have nested in CHNS in the past. I have looked and I can't find anywhere where the NPS or Audubon states piping plovers are endangered species . Please list a quote and a footnote to support your asseration.
Threatened species are identified and listed under the "Endangered Species Act". What part of that can't you understand?


I never said Leatherbacks were not endangered. Just pointed out that they are rare for the OBX, like Snowy Owls, outside the "normal range". Whistle

Rob's first NPS link is a good example.
Click to follow link...
"Federally protected threatened or endangered species include the piping plover, seabeach amaranth, and sea turtles"
and
"Although many of the plants and animals you will see throughout the Seashore are common to eastern North Carolina, the Seashore does also support several threatened and endangered species, such as the piping plover and loggerhead sea turtle."

Which species is endangered? Aren't all these species, kind of outside the "normal range" for Hatteras Island? Isn't it known that all these species are consistently more successful in other nearby environments? Just say'n!
Liar


RE: Endangered Species?




Your nitpicking because your biased. Any rational person would understand what the Park was and was not trying to convey.
Anything else?

"Endangered Species Act | Overview
When Congress passed the Endangered Species Act (ESA) in 1973, it recognized that our rich natural heritage is of “esthetic, ecological, educational, recreational, and scientific value to our Nation and its people.” It further expressed concern that many of our nation’s native plants and animals were in danger of becoming extinct.

The purpose of the ESA is to protect and recover imperiled species and the ecosystems upon which they depend. It is administered by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Commerce Department’s National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS). The FWS has primary responsibility for terrestrial and freshwater organisms, while the responsibilities of NMFS are mainly marine wildlife such as whales and anadromons fish such as salmon.

Under the ESA, species may be listed as either endangered or threatened. “Endangered” means a species is in danger of extinction throughout all or a significant portion of its range. “Threatened” means a species is likely to become endangered within the foreseeable future. All species of plants and animals, except pest insects, are eligible for listing as endangered or threatened. For the purposes of the ESA, Congress defined species to include subspecies, varieties, and, for vertebrates, distinct population segments."





RE: Endangered Species?




Your nitpicking because your biased. Any rational person would understand what the Park was and was not trying to convey.
Anything else?

"Endangered Species Act | Overview
When Congress passed the Endangered Species Act (ESA) in 1973, it recognized that our rich natural heritage is of “esthetic, ecological, educational, recreational, and scientific value to our Nation and its people.” It further expressed concern that many of our nation’s native plants and animals were in danger of becoming extinct.

The purpose of the ESA is to protect and recover imperiled species and the ecosystems upon which they depend. It is administered by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Commerce Department’s National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS). The FWS has primary responsibility for terrestrial and freshwater organisms, while the responsibilities of NMFS are mainly marine wildlife such as whales and anadromons fish such as salmon.

Under the ESA, species may be listed as either endangered or threatened. “Endangered” means a species is in danger of extinction throughout all or a significant portion of its range. “Threatened” means a species is likely to become endangered within the foreseeable future. All species of plants and animals, except pest insects, are eligible for listing as endangered or threatened. For the purposes of the ESA, Congress defined species to include subspecies, varieties, and, for vertebrates, distinct population segments."


Unfortunately, the ESA, though well intentioned, has been largely unsuccessful in conserving the species it was meant to protect. In addition, its enforcement has, at times, resulted in dire economic consequences for the communities and landowners who have been affected by it.
Currently, there is a lack of reliable data analysis in the decision making process for endangered species protection. What has happened at CHNSRA is a perfect example of why we need to reform the ESA, that is the resulting loss of public access and economic hardship on surrounding communities.
Whistle



RE: Endangered Species?




Speaking of leatherbacks, have you ever seen the inside of its mouth? Yikes!

Click to follow link...


RE: Endangered Species?







Unfortunately, the ESA, though well intentioned, has been largely unsuccessful in conserving the species it was meant to protect. In addition, its enforcement has, at times, resulted in dire economic consequences for the communities and landowners who have been affected by it.
Currently, there is a lack of reliable data analysis in the decision making process for endangered species protection. What has happened at CHNSRA is a perfect example of why we need to reform the ESA, that is the resulting loss of public access and economic hardship on surrounding communities.
Whistle



The statement that the ESA has not been successful is blatantly false. This is pure propaganda that no matter how many times repeated does not make it true.


RE: Endangered Species?






The statement that the ESA has not been successful is blatantly false. This is pure propaganda that no matter how many times repeated does not make it true.


I said "has been largely unsuccessful" and the facts support my statement.

Only one percent of species (20 out of 2,000) under the protection of the Endangered Species Act (ESA) have recovered sufficiently to qualify for delisting. And the millions of dollars spent on often failed recovery efforts are difficult to justify, especially in these otherwise tough economic times(thanks Obama). Whistle


RE: Endangered Species?




Hey fishingeek,
How many listed species have gone extinct since the ESA was established? What do you think should have been done differently? Have you come up with any more glaring examples where the NPS and conservation groups have tried to pawn some threatened species off as endangered?


RE: Endangered Species?




Key word being 'listed'. How many unlisted species have passed in the same time frame ? The ESA seems to need a little 'tweaking'.

motherboard.vice.com/blog...


RE: Endangered Species?




Do you mean to say the SELC dropped the ball and didn't sue the Feds? Oh the horror !! Just think of all those legal fees they could have stuck the taxpayers for. Here's to you SELC Banana ,!,,


RE: Endangered Species?




Key word being 'listed'. How many unlisted species have passed in the same time frame ? The ESA seems to need a little 'tweaking'.


Those species must not have been cute enough, or controversial enough. Therefore they didn't have any fundraising potential. The faux-environmental groups and lawyers need to be paid to care, afterall. Piggy


RE: Endangered Species?




More likely the rightwingers threw another monkey wrench cause we  know you all don't give a rat's behind about any more animals getting listed. Amazing, blaming conservationists for doing the very thing you want, fewer listed animals. 


RE: Endangered Species?




More likely the rightwingers threw another monkey wrench cause we  know you all don't give a rat's behind about any more animals getting listed. Amazing, blaming conservationists for doing the very thing you want, fewer listed animals. 


The things you don't know are legion, including my views on Endangered Species. The ESA is a well-intentioned but poorly executed piece of legislation.


RE: Endangered Species?




More likely the rightwingers threw another monkey wrench cause we  know you all don't give a rat's behind about any more animals getting listed. Amazing, blaming conservationists for doing the very thing you want, fewer listed animals. 


The things you don't know are legion, including my views on Endangered Species. The ESA is a well-intentioned but poorly executed piece of legislation.


Indeed! And anyone who knows me, knows I'm no "rightwinger".

You need to sharpen your game, sea oat.


RE: Endangered Species?




"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"


RE: Endangered Species?




Do you have any examples of where the NPS has said Piping Plovers were an "endangered species"?
It is fair for you to challenge my statement. I will try to find one of the examples; the one I recall was in some of the info conceneind Assateague Island. I did not make this up; I relate the info becasue it struck me as wrong at the time I read it, and I was amazed that a federal agency connected with conservation would say such a thing.

Getitng education out about the ESA and what is done for various levels of protection is my concern. Any info that anyone can provide on that is my point; it is the current 'playbook' that we have.

Edit with update: OK here is an NPS statement from Bear Dune NP that says that the Piping Plover is endnagered and makes no distinction on the populations. This took <10 minutes of googling to find. This section is quoted in its entirity.

"What is a Piping Plover?
The piping plover (Charadrius melodus) is an endangered shorebird. They are sand-colored on the back and white below. During the breeding season adults have a black forehead band between the eyes and a single black band around the neck. (Its larger relative the killdeer is commonly seen at parks, playgrounds, and golf courses, and has two dark bands around the neck.) Piping plovers nest only on beaches and prefer beaches with gravel. There are three small populations: one in the Great Plains, one on the Atlantic Coast, and the one here in the Great Lakes. They winter together on the Gulf Coast but travel to the separate areas during the breeding season. It is a special opportunity to be able observe piping plovers since there are only between 50 and 60 nesting pairs in the entire Great Lakes area and less than 7000 individuals worldwide."

You can't expect every organization to explain these things in detail because you have a prejudice with certain groups and government agencies.
No, not only can I expect them to be 100% accurate, EVERRYBODY should demand this, inlcuding you. Saying it is OK to be sloppy with terms opens the door to any and all misuse of terms, and leads to mistrust and wrongful application of the law. How do enviros think they will help themselves by being abusive of the terms of the law?


RE: Endangered Species?




We shall see....

hamptonroads.com/2014/08...


RE: Endangered Species?




"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"


I'm about as conservative as they come and I was the installation Environmental Program Manager for Naval Station Norfolk for seven years. More than once I put my career in jeopardy by getting in a shouting match with Admirals. Don't believe everything your imagination tells you.

Here's me receiving a award from the Ass't Secretary of the Navy, the Commander of NAVFACENGCOM, and the DOD Regional Environmental Coordinator for having the best large non-industrial installation. And what are your credentials?




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