Good stewardship?

Good stewardship?




That can of worms was opened up by someone else in previous posts. Yes everyone should be practicing good stewardship not just giving lip service to the idea. When I asked that question as simple and as unthreatening as possible I knew I would have to take cover for the s&@ storm that was coming. Here goes.

The idea of stewardship is a complicated one. In the situation at CHNS I find the people and orgs that are trying to manage the park by protecting flora, fauna and preserving ecosystems through regulations much more valuable  than those that have organised trash pick ups and rescue animals that are problems (cats, racoons, etc). The predator control program conducted by the NPS is understandably complicated and controversial. I get it and am sympathetic to those that are genuinely upset about it. On the other hand I totally see through the ruse of feigned indignation by recreational fishermen who complain so vehemently about that program. The trapping by the biologists that sanctioned it is not complicated or playing God. Raccoon, red foxes and feral cats numbers are not in any biological stress. If they were they would not be trapping them. Taking those feral cats to the SPCA is stupid in my book but I am glad the NPS is doing it. They (NPS) are not playing favorites they are doing what they have been trained to do. I believe the NPS trapping program is  an example of good stewardship. Organised catch and realease fishing tournaments like the Red Drum one that just finished are different in that their purpose is solely for the entertainment of the individuals participating, there is no stewardship involved that I know of. To bad they don't at least tag everything they catch and release.

I have seen untold countless mobile fishermen, some proclaiming every fishing org and ORV organisations bumper sticker on their vehicle toss cigarette butt after butt on the beach. Right now ride out to Cape Point and observe, you wont have to look for long. Individually a couple of vehicle staying in the previous track on the beach is no problem,  put 200 plus vehicles on a busy weekend at Cape Point and watch what a pristine beach turns into (actually it stays that way) a hideous mess of churned up sand that stays that way for weeks or months. Then tell everybody no problem a big storm will come through and smooth everything out or take a hike on PINWR if vehicles on the beach bother you. Screw that I don't want to wait weeks for a big storm to smooth their mess out.

So if I want to count up good stewardship points the bird organisations and birders win hands down for me. To be clear I am a avid fishermen who catches and keeps everything I legally can, hunts and does not go birding other than to go to the refugee to look at wildfowl or out of boredom when I am hunting or fishing. Good stewardship for me is management and actions that keep the land in as natural, healthy and productive state as possible, something I think the mobile fishermen have little concern about.

This board has a dedicated group of followers who post regularly post from one extreme viewpoint when it comes to driving on the Park beach. They should get out of their skin once and a while.



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RE: Good stewardship?




Ok brilliant one, what EXACTLY do the bird organizations and birders do for CHNSRA??????????????? Whistle


RE: Good stewardship?




That can of worms was opened up by someone else in previous posts. Yes everyone should be practicing good stewardship not just giving lip service to the idea. When I asked that question as simple and as unthreatening as possible I knew I would have to take cover for the s&@ storm that was coming. Here goes.

The idea of stewardship is a complicated one. In the situation at CHNS I find the people and orgs that are trying to manage the park by protecting flora, fauna and preserving ecosystems through regulations much more valuable  than those that have organised trash pick ups and rescue animals that are problems (cats, racoons, etc). The predator control program conducted by the NPS is understandably complicated and controversial. I get it and am sympathetic to those that are genuine about it. On the other hand I totally see through the ruse of feigned indignation by recreational fishermen who complain so vehemently about that program. The trapping by the biologists that sanctioned it is not complicated or playing God. Raccoon, red foxes and feral cats numbers are not in any biological stress. If they were they would not be trapping them. Taking those feral cats to the SPCA is stupid in my book but I am glad the NPS is doing it. They (NPS) are not playing favorites they are doing what they have been trained to do. I believe the NPS trapping program is  an example of good stewardship. Organised catch and realease fishing tournaments like the Red Drum one that just finished are different in that their purpose is solely for the entertainment of the individuals participating, there is no stewardship involved that I know of. To bad they don't at least tag everything they catch and release.

I have seen untold countless mobile fishermen, some proclaiming every fishing org and ORV organisations bumper sticker on their vehicle toss cigarette butt after butt on the beach. Right now ride out to Cape Point and observe, you wont have to look for long. Individually a couple of vehicle staying in the previous track on the beach is no problem,  put 200 plus vehicles on a busy weekend at Cape Point and watch a pristine beach turn (actually it stays that way) into a hideous mess of churned up sand that stays that way for weeks or months. Then tell everybody no problem a big storm will come through and smooth everything out or take a hike on PINWR if vehicles on the beach bother you. Screw that I don't want to wait weeks for a big storm to smooth their mess out.

So if I want to count up good stewardship points the bird organisations and birders win hands down for me. To be clear I am a avid fishermen who catches and keeps everything I legally can, hunts and does not go birding other than to go to the refugee to look at wildfowl or out of boredom when I am hunting or fishing. Good stewardship for me is management and actions that keep the land in as natural, healthy and productive state as possible, something I think the mobile fishermen have little concern about.

This board has a dedicated group of followers who post regularly post from one extreme viewpoint when it comes to driving on the Park beach. They should get out of their skin once and a while.


Sea Oat,

Good post ... Unfortunately on this forum local issues cannot be discussed in a rational manner and always seem to resort to name calling and personal attacks by the pro orv unrestricted access crowd. Ya just gotta laugh at the kids and their actions because the anti everything group lacks the ability to realize that the local issues forum is not exclusively theirs and they cannot respond in kind when reasonable discussion is presented. Because of their lack of understanding or comprehension of issues we all know what ensues.


RE: Good stewardship?




Whatever you say billfish..............


RE: Good stewardship?




Tex, thought I explained it but here goes again. They champion legislation and management that promotes best use practices and intact healthy ecosystems.

Dennis it is why I think threads get whacked too much logic, makes them nervous.


RE: Good stewardship?




If the access issues are truly about Stewardship why are the protocols different here in CHNSRA ? Why aren't the turtle eggs relocated before overwash ? Why are closures larger than football fields implemented unnecessarily ? Why would an organization that has the word 'environmental' in their title ssuggest that we should use Diesel burning Ferries to replace a functional and important bridge ? I too have seen some dumb shxt on the beach by wild drivers. They are a tiny percentage. I'm quite sure tsome members of DOW,SELC et al have done dumb shxt at some point in their lives as well.
What happened here was the NPS got caught not following a presidential edict. Someone realized that the NPS is unable to protect the assets they are responsible for and made a power play. NPS responds by denying access to at least preserve what they have. (see ELlis Island, Dunes National Park in IN). THe NPS response is punitive and heavy-handed.

This ain't about the birds or turtles.


RE: Good stewardship?




Right Sea Oat. And those best management practices are "KEEP OUT" for 5 or 6 months a year, permanently closed areas, useless Pedestrian only areas (rarely used by pedestrians) Ridiculous buffers for bird nesting used nowhere else, not moving turtle nests out of harms way.......Whatever......Tex out.


RE: Good stewardship?




Ok brilliant one,


No need for personal insults Tex.


RE: Good stewardship?




Sea Oat,

thank you for pointing out the "Other" extreme viewpoint.

And Dennis,
"Good post ... Unfortunately on this forum local issues cannot be discussed in a rational manner and always seem to resort to name calling and personal attacks by the pro orv unrestricted access crowd."

Who is it that starts their posts with name calling?



RE: Good stewardship?




"into a hideous mess of churned up sand that stays that way for weeks or months"

A point for some degree of honesty on your part. You don't care for tire tracks in the sand. How do you feel about all those disturbing footprints? Those nasty gulls that get caught up in the closure strings are a bit offensive in my opinion but I guess worthwhile to fledge, what, 4 plovers?

Although I disagree with beach closures I do respect one outspoken retired ranger who says he things the beaches should be off limits to pedestrians and vehicles. At least he is being honest and not hiding behind the false science that is being used to close Hatteras beaches.

If you want to consider viable options just look at Padre Island where the hatch numbers are all higher, the turtles are near 100% because of nest relocation and egg incubation, the bird closures are 200' and the FWD traffic exceeds that of CHNSRA considerably. That is, of course, unless you are unwilling to consider an alternative that works for the critters and the sportsmen! I'm suspecting that may be the case.

You must be referring to a different Point then the one with which I am familiar - where the winds and tides erase those tracks in short order.


RE: Good stewardship?




"So if I want to count up good stewardship points the bird organisations and birders win hands down for me."

so now there is a competition to see whose stewardship is more stewardshippy? This forum gets more entertaining by the day


RE: Good stewardship?




That can of worms was opened up by someone else in previous posts.

The idea of stewardship is a complicated one.

This board has a dedicated group of followers who post regularly post from one extreme viewpoint when it comes to driving on the Park beach. They should get out of their skin once and a while.


Sir - You failed to cite the [edited] plagiarized source of your post. Liar

May I also recommend [getting] out of [your] skin once in a while. Clapping smiley

Cut and paste may work in academia, but 'round here, first hand accounts and original thoughts are understood and appreciated. Thumbs up

Anyway, have fun in the playground. Don't touch the brown buried stuff in the sandbox - it is not a Baby Ruth.


RE: Good stewardship?




Ok brilliant one,


No need for personal insults Tex.


I agree. Referring to anyone as the infamous troll "billfish" is insulting. Confused


RE: Good stewardship?




Hatteras NC
Thread was nixed so I can't quote it. Get out of my skin every day of my life. I can see your pov you can't see mind. Don't follow the rest of your thoughts.


RE: Good stewardship?




"Denise it is why I think..."


Speaking of personal insults...


RE: Good stewardship?




Trip trop trip trop...
no goat emoji Sad smiley


RE: Good stewardship?




Hatteras NC
Thread was nixed so I can't quote it. Get out of my skin every day of my life. I can see your pov you can't see mind. Don't follow the rest of your thoughts.


I think I am seeing what you are writing, but it is not coherent. Once you get to where you are going and can read, comprehend, then research, cut and paste, get back to me.Big grin

As the for the "Denise" reference. . . PRICELESS!


RE: Good stewardship?




"I'm sorry, I'm afraid I can't do that."


RE: Good stewardship?




Sea Oat, I have been thinking about your post all day. Without attacking you in any way - are you sure you understand stewardship? Cigarette butts aside there have always been enclosures for birds and turtles and most sportsmen and women realize the need for protection. What tilts the scale is the unnecessary closing of the beaches and the huge size of these enclosures. Conservation efforts need to be based on science and not on special interest groups who want to restrict ALL access to the beach. As previously stated it is not about the birds.

If you were a resident how would you like to be denied use of your hometown beach front? The NPS got caught and the special interest groups took advantage of it. Unfortunately residents are rarely consulted with decisions such as this. Take it from me - I live with the NPS daily. Their attitude is "we are the NPS, and you are not". Our family are birders also - so we do understand conservation efforts for endangered species. Plovers are not endangered. And on another note - the other Outer Banks towns protect the turtle nests and do not require everyone to be off the beach.

So before you point out how bad fishermen driving the beaches are - get some more facts.


RE: Good stewardship?




Individually a couple of vehicle staying in the previous track on the beach is no problem,  put 200 plus vehicles on a busy weekend at Cape Point and watch what a pristine beach turns into (actually it stays that way) a hideous mess of churned up sand that stays that way for weeks or months. Then tell everybody no problem a big storm will come through and smooth everything out or take a hike on PINWR if vehicles on the beach bother you. Screw that I don't want to wait weeks for a big storm to smooth their mess out.



In the NPS CAHA DEIS, FEIS and other documents that can be found in the Federal Register, one will find that the NPS, USGS and USFWS all concluded that beach driving in general at CAHA and the 2007 Interim ORV Plan all fell under the NEPA designation of "FONSI", or "Finding Of No Significant Impact".



[B]"(1) The Interim Management Plan fully titled Interim Protected Species Management Strategy/Environmental Assessment was publically discussed at great length and reviewed under the NEPA provisions in 2006. It was signed into effect in July 2007 and published in the Federal Register.
As indicated at page 30 in the Finding of No Significant Impact Interim Management Strategy (See Attached) “There are no significant adverse impacts on public health, public safety, threatened or endangered species, sites or districts listed in or eligible for listing in the National Register of Historic Places, or other unique characteristics of the region. In addition, no highly uncertain or highly controversial impacts, unique or unknown risks, significant cumulative effects, or elements of precedence have been identified and implementing the selected alternative (modified preferred alternative – Alternative D (Access/Research Component Focus) with Elements of Alternative A) will not violate any federal, state, or local environmental protection law. There will be no impairment of park resources or values resulting from implementation of the selected alternative.”
The USFWS reviewed and concurred with the Interim Strategy and the Finding of No Significant Impact."[/b]

At least 3 government agencies say your concerns are unwarranted, Sea Oat. You may wish to re-think your position.




RE: Good stewardship?




At least 3 government agencies say your concerns are unwarranted, Sea Oat. You may wish to re-think your position.


Hence, my repeated question, which remains unanswered: How has the presence of ORVs on CHNS adversely affected protected, threatened, or endangered species?


RE: Good stewardship?




At least 3 government agencies say your concerns are unwarranted, Sea Oat. You may wish to re-think your position.


Hence, my repeated question, which remains unanswered: How has the presence of ORVs on CHNS adversely affected protected, threatened, or endangered species?


With the FEIS in place at CHNS by the NPS, nesting shorebirds and sea turtles will not be adversely affected by ORV use.




RE: Good stewardship?




With the FEIS in place at CHNS by the NPS, nesting shorebirds and sea turtles will not be adversely affected by ORV use.


And, still no answer...


RE: Good stewardship?




With the FEIS in place at CHNS by the NPS, nesting shorebirds and sea turtles will not be adversely affected by ORV use.


And, still no answer...


And so it goes...Dennis had the moment to shine....uhs and ahs from the crowd...then...complete fail...lol!


RE: Good stewardship?




Were some posts removed here? I posted a pic, but don't see it. No big deal, these are just posts on a msg board, after all. Enjoying a bit of a breeze today, while being a good steward of the beach. Party


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